TJ Cloutier Interview

Here is an excerpt from an interview with Adam Schwartz & Mike Johnson from Rounder's the Podcast with poker legend; T.J. Cloutier. T.J. is an old school player. Here he shares his thoughts about the internet poker generation and he gives some insight into his long poker career.

Adam: In the main event in 1985 you finished second to Bill Smith I believe. First, do you remember much about that heads up battle? And second, how do you think that your poker career might be different if you had won that?

T.J: I don't think it would have changed anything to tell you the truth. With Bill, in our main hand I had the lead at one point and I had two nines, we got it all in and he had two kings and he won. Then on the final hand I looked at an ace and he had raised it. I just moved over the top of him for all I had left and then he looked down and had two threes.

Of course, if I happened to have Ace-4 or Ace-5 or anything like that I would have been 11 to 10 on him, but I happened to have Ace-3 and the two threes held up. But that's all part of poker.

Mike: I want to talk about reputation. How does your reputation affect the way that a lot of these young internet poker players take you on at the table. Everybody knows you and they've read your books, but you don't know anything about them. Does that make them more afraid of you, or does that make them want to take you on more?

T.J: It's very common to go to a table and hear from everybody "Oh, we gotta play against you?" or "Don't leave the table until you sign an autograph" or this or that. Well you know you've got them about 2 steps into the grave already. But actually, you've still gotta be able to show them a hand.

The big difference between an amateur and a pro is that the pro is gonna get more out of his hands than the amateur will get out of their hands. You know...a pro is gonna know how everybody at the table plays within 10 minutes to a half an hour anyways. So it's no big disadvantage for us. I actually like it.

Adam: One thing that I want to ask you about that you touched on...how fast do you get a read on a player that you haven't seen before?

T.J: Real fast...

Adam: Does it take maybe 1 hand?

T.J: No...because every type of hand is different. It takes 2 or 3 or 4...a lot of them will tell you a lot by their betting patterns and their positional play and things like that. You can pick up on them pretty quick.

Mike: Obviously you've been around for a very long time, I want to get your reaction when you hear some of these young hot shots that say "I can get the same type of experience that T.J. Cloutier got, by playing online at 5 or 6 tables all day long over a period of 2 or 3 years. What do you say when you hear those guys saying that they can have as much experience as you in no time because of the current technology?

T.J: Well, I'm sure it helps quite a bit, but I got news for ya; Lookin' somebody in the eye is a lot different than playing online. When you've got to look them in the eye and you pick up different things that they do and stuff like that, that's the whole game. I mean you can play basics, and basic strategy online but there is a lot of things you can pick up and hear from their conversations and stuff when you are playing with them that you can't do online. And you never will be able to, that's just the way it is.

Adam: So that's T.J. telling everybody to not talk at the table if they ever get to a final table with him.

Mike: But you don't disrespect these guys, I read an article that you wrote in Cardplayer Magazine about a year ago that you don't like that term "Dead money"

T.J: No, I hate that term. I don't think there is such a thing as dead money. I mean if somebody is drunk or something like that, or a multi-millionaire and they want to come in and just put their money in the blinds, then that's dead money. But anybody that can hold 2 cards has a chance to win. Maybe not the whole tournament but any given hand they have a chance to win. And the people they picked out at the world series that first year were all descent players and they were calling them all dead money.

People like the Feduniaks...Maureen has won quite a few tournaments and been in the money a lot of times and so has Bob. I just thought it was way out of line to call people dead money.

Mike: You came to the defense of Chris Moneymaker when a lot of your compatriots that have been around the live tables for a long time were taking shots at him.

T.J: Yeah, well...I'm not Phil Hellmuth, I don't take shots at people. I mean I think Chris Moneymaker can play pretty damn good, I'll tell you the truth, I mean sure he was lucky, but listen, for me to win the world series right now I would have to be lucky. You're playing against so many players that at some point you're gonna have to get lucky for a couple of hands. Now I understand there's a couple of things he did that I wouldn't have done. But when I played him in  a live cash game in L.A., he played damn good. He got away from a hand...3 or 4 different hands on the end that he had put money in where I had the nuts, and he didn't call his money off, where a lot of players would have. There's nothing wrong with Chris Moneymaker's play.

I mean, he's not a pro, he was an amateur. But he's not a bad amateur he's a good amateur.

Adam: And in his defense, his year was really the first year that we got to see everybody's hole cards. So you could see when somebody got lucky. Where as before, maybe we didn't see it all the time.

T.J: Yeah...there's nothing wrong with his play. Greg Raymer played good the year he won it, and actually he played real good again this year too. He's a nice guy, I like Greg and Chris Moneymaker.

I just don't think anybody should be disrespected when they're playing the game. Heck, anybody can pick up 2 cards and make the right play. If it's by accident, it's by accident. But over a period of time it won't be by accident.

Mike: T.J, you actually have played back in the days with the real characters; Doyle, Amarillo Slim and Bobby Baldwin. Do you think the poker world is ever gonna see anymore of those characters that we look back on? Will there be those types of days anymore, or has it just gotten so "Big business" now?

T.J: I really don't know. As far as I'm concerned with everybody today; there are some aggressive and super aggressive players, don't get me wrong, but most of them...personality wise, when they are playing you can sort of put them in the same can. In the old days, everybody was from a different jibb, I mean you couldn't believe some of the stuff that went on in those days and how good some of those players were. Guys like, you mentioned Bill Smith...Johnny Moss. Doyle is right from that school too, and so was Slim. But I mean there used to be so many different personalities in the games that you just don't see anymore. Nowadays all they do is play poker. Heck, we did everything.

Adam: There is some amazing stories I've read...Doyle talks about; First you have to win, then you had to cash out, and then you had to make it to your car! It must have been interesting back in those days.

Mike: There is people who say that this poker thing is just a passing fad. That there's those who are into it now, they are gonna outgrow it and move on to something different. As somebody who has played for so long and you have loved the game for so long; What is you reaction to people who are calling it the "poker boom" and just a passing fad.

T.J: Well, I don't agree with them. At first, I was so dead set against all of these kids that are playing online and stuff. But most of them play real cheap, and it's keeping them from going out and drinking and getting in car accidents and drugs and all of this stuff. I'm all for it now. If my son lost $20 after the whole weekend I don't think I would go crazy over it.

There is a lot of these little whiz kids that are winning at it now. But no, I don't think it's a passing fad. Sure, sooner or later with the saturation on tv and stuff like that it will go down, but they've got some big plans for some big shows still coming up that are gonna be different. You know, like team events and things. I just can't see it going down in the next 10 years. It's gonna hit it's saturation point where there's not gonna be that many more players, cause right now it just builds and builds and builds every year.

It's something a lot of people like to do. Let's face it. Wherever we go we are recognized. Now we're going into restaurants and they're giving us free meals and stuff like that. I mean It's unbelievable.